Ferryhouse

Quotes
"I accept that the boys experienced enormous anxiety and fear".
Quotes
You have heard evidence, which I think you don't doubt, that bare fists were used from time to time? A. I certainly don't doubt that the open hand was used.
Quotes
They had to accept "there was quite an amount of truth in what people were saying to us, perhaps even more than we knew at that stage".
Quotes
Most staff, many with little education and none with training in childcare, were from rural backgrounds.
Quotes
they came across institutions where children were being punished, not at the time of a misdemeanour, but were later gathered on a stairway, were made to strip off, and were then beaten.
Monday, May 15, 2006
Punishments
FR. JOSEPH O'REILLY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. McCULLOUGH:

Q. MR. McCULLOUGH: I represent a number of complaints, Father, and I want to ask you in the first instance about corporal punishment in Ferryhouse and in Upton. One of the things...(INTERJECTION)

THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McCullough, sorry, I am finding it a tiny bit difficult to hear.

MR. O'BRIEN: I can't hear, I have a hearing problem.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. O'Brien, give me a chance to -- Mr. O'Brien, stop for a second.

MR. O'BRIEN: We want to hear what's going on.

THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm trying to tell you. I know Mr. O'Brien has just indicated to me that he can't here. I am having a slight bit of difficulty.

MR. O'BRIEN: Here's the proof I can't hear, I have a hearing aid and I can't hear with that. Will you please -- we are the people who want to know, not these people who are getting paid.

Q. MR. McCULLOUGH: One of the things you said, Father, in September 2004 was that you couldn't say how much corporal punishment was meted out, but that it was probably not worse than most homes. You have heard a lot of evidence since then. Do you want to add anything to those comments?
A. Can I just clarify, was I covering the entire period of Ferryhouse? Is your question in relation to the entire period of Ferryhouse?

Q. I think, Father, in fairness you are covering the period largely up to 1970?
A. Certainly, I think, on reviewing whatever documentation we have and having consulted again with people, I would say that corporal punishment in Ferryhouse was at times excessive.

Q. Yes.
A. Perhaps it wouldn't be fair -- the comments I made at that time in regard to a comparison with a home perhaps wouldn't be fair. That said, I'm sure that there were many homes in which corporal punishment was also excessive.

Q. Can I look back, Father, at some of the evidence we have heard, without naming the names of any people who gave evidence. I think it is clear from the history of both of the institutions, but in particular for the period prior to 1970, that there was a great deal of corporal punishment in both institutions?
A. I think there was a considerable amount of -- great deal, yes. Yeah.

Q. It is also clear that that corporal punishment took place all over the premises and not simply in the prefect's office?
A. Corporal punishment was generally supposed to be administered in the prefect's office and from what I can ascertain, I would say that it did happen there for the most part. I would accept also that it happened in many other places in both Ferryhouse and Upton.

Q. Yes, you have heard a great deal of evidence which I think you don't doubt, Father, that it happened spontaneously, in quite a number of locations outside the prefect's office?
A. Yes, I would agree with that, yes.

Q. And that everybody, every member of the community who had any contact with boys, was entitled and felt entitled to administer that corporal punishment as he wished?
A. No, I'm afraid I couldn't agree with that. Certainly the prefects administered corporal punishment, often spontaneously for things that happened on the spot. There were other members of the community who may have had particular roles in regard to the boys whom I accept would at times have administered corporal punishment spontaneously, perhaps like a slap, or a clatter. Some of those people might be people who had direct contact with the boys at times, for example, if there was a bandmaster or somebody else who was directly involved with the boys. But I don't think that every member of the community in every role would have administered corporal punishment, I don't think that we heard evidence that that would be true about everybody. I can think of individuals that we did not hear evidence about.

Q. I asked you about every member of the community who had contact with the boys, they all seem to have been entitled to administer or felt entitled to administer corporal punishment; isn't that correct?
A. I think there are degrees here.

Q. Yes.
A. I can't -- I'm not quibbling with what you are saying generally.

Q. The evidence appears to establish that corporal punishment was frequently excessive, both in respect of individual occasions and in respect of the perceived offences for which it was administered, would you agree with that?
A. There are a lot of words in that statement there.

Q. All right, I will break it down.
A. You mentioned frequently excessive, I don't know that I would describe it, from what I heard, as being frequently excessive. I would certainly agree that at times it was excessive.

Q. The Committee has heard evidence of 20, 20 blows being administered to boys, you would accept that occurred?
A. I'm afraid I would, yes.

Q. And that was something that was clearly excessive?
A. Yes.

Q. The Committee indeed heard evidence that on at least one day in 1954 20 blows were administered to 17 boys on the same day. You would agree that that was grossly excessive?
A. I would.

Q. Would you agree also that the perceived offences for which it was administered couldn't possibly be justified, in many cases?
A. The perceived --

Q. Well, I'm quoting just from the Punishment Book,Father, and you can comment on it?
A. Please.

Q. There is "giving cheek"?
A. Yeah.

Q. "Playing soccer frequently"?
A. Yes.

Q. What about those offences?

A. Well, clearly playing soccer should not have been a matter or an issue that people were punished for.

Q. Or giving cheek?
A. Or giving cheek. I think that really depends on the circumstances at the time. If a boy is giving cheek to a prefect in front of a number of other boys that would certainly -- I could see that certainly being an occasion for a boy being punished, given the time that was in it.

Q. Yes. "Talking at mass"?
A. I think it would depend on the circumstances. I'm not defending it, but I think it might depend on the circumstances.

Q. "Horseplay, laughing in chapel", could these things possibly be justified, Father?
A. I think in the context of the time they could be, yes.

Q. All right, well I will come back to context of the time in due course. Would you accept, looking at it generally, that the range of offences for which punishment was administered was surprisingly wide, even looking at it in retrospect?
A. Clearly, I think that there was a wide range of reasons for which boys received corporal punishment, it was very wide, I would accept that it perhaps was difficult for children to know at times exactly where the limits were. But I think that was in the context of the time, as it would be today.

Q. Yes. It appears also from the evidence that it wasn't simply the strap that was used to administer punishment; isn't that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. You have heard evidence, which I think you don't doubt, that bare fists were used from time to time?
A. I certainly don't doubt that the open hand was used.

Q. Do you doubt that people were punched?
A. I accept that there may have been occasion when children were punched.

Q. Do you accept that hurleys were used?
A. I find that rather difficult to.

Q. Yet you have heard people say it on more than one occasion?
A. I have.

Q. You accept, I think, that the strap that was used on at least some part of this time had coins sewn into it?
A. I have heard that said, and I have heard others contradict it, and I quite honestly do not know whether there were coins in it or not.

Q. Yes. There is a document, Father, called "Statements on Issues Concerning St. Joseph's Industrial School,Clonmel", do you remember that document?
A. Yes, I think I do.

Q. Yes. I think that's a document that was compiled by the Rosminians themselves; is that correct?
A. There are so many documents, I'm sorry, if I could see the front of it even I would know.

Q. Yes. It is at 37 A14 in yet another set of books that the Commission has been given this morning. There should be two green books in front of the Commission, they are all taken from the discovery and they are organised in a slightly different way.

................

................

Q. MR. McCULLOUGH: If you look at divider A, tab 14, Father. It is the last tab in divider A.
A. Yes.

Q. Is that a document compiled by the Rosminians?
A. That's a document that I compiled myself when I was working in Ferryhouse, in the early perhaps about 2000, 2001.

Q. Yes.
A. Having discussed a range of issues with a number of people, both members of the Congregation, past pupils,former members of staff, and I compiled this and sent it forward to our Provincial in Dublin at the time.

Q. Yes, and it was in due course discovered to the Commission?
A. Yes.

Q. The fourth page of that Fr. O'Reilly.
A. Yes.

Q. At the top of the page reads as follows: "It seems that a coin or coins were put into the straps used in Ferryhouse, although there is no memory of salt being put on the strap prior to use." That's something that you wrote, as you say, in the year 2000; is that right?
A. That's correct.

Q. I take it that that, therefore, was something that you were able to determine prior even to hearing any evidence?
A. That's correct. That's correct, yes.

Q. There can hardly be any doubt, Father, under circumstances where you were able to say that in 2000 that such was the case?
A. I can say in that time, and since, I have heard people say that there was a coin or coins inside. But I have also heard other people saying that there wasn't, and so I cannot -- if somebody shows me a strap with coins in it, I will certainly accept it. I just do not know.

Q. Including, I think, at least one member of the Rosminians or then member of the Rosminians, who confirmed such was the case?
A. Yes.

Q. Who gave evidence in the private session?
A. Yes.

Q. And you don't doubt him?
A. If I say I don't doubt him, do I doubt the people who told me there were no coins in it?

Q. There were particular offences, Father, to which it is clear on the evidence, particular types of punishment were handed out. Boys who ran away were dealt with particularly brutally, do you accept that?
A. I think boys who ran away were dealt with severely, yes.

Q. Mr. McGrath will be dealing with that in more detail, but you would accept, I think, just to ask you one or two general questions about it, that beatings were administered to boys who ran away?
A. Yes, I think boys who ran away were often severely punished because of the problem that it created in the school, the unease that it created among the rest of the boys.

Q. For whatever reason they were certainly beaten; isn't that right?
A. That's correct. Not always beaten, but I accept that often.

Q. But that does seem to be the norm, doesn't it, that they were beaten?
A. I accept that they usually were punished for running away.

Q. And quite severely punished. The Commission has heard evidence of really quite extreme and savage punishments for boys who ran away?
A. I don't think that savage punishments was the norm for boys who ran away.

Q. Including on at least some occasions public punishment?
A. Yes, I accept that, yes.

Q. And that there were other punishments, including people's hair being saved off, that were associated with running away; isn't that correct?
A. For a period of time, yes, I accept that.
posted by The Knitter @ 6:53 AM   1 comments
Wednesday, May 10, 2006
Cold, Hungry Brutalised Children
A RELIGIOUS order admitted yesterday that boys at two of its industrial schools were left cold and hungry while priests dined in comfort. The clerics further admitted boys in their care were brutally beaten although the State banned corporal punishment in 1982. Beatings continued at the Ferryhouse Industrial School in Co Tipperary until 1993 despite a letter from the Department of Education sent in 1989 warning that the ban also applied to industrial as well as national schools, the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse heard. The commission was told that the boys lived in an atmosphere of constant fear and anxiety, and were punished excessively, sometimes brutally.

Fr Joe O'Reilly, of the Rosminian Institute of Charity which ran Ferryhouse and the St Patrick's Industrial School in Upton, Co Cork, admitted that its boys who were from unstable or troubled backgrounds went from "the frying pan into the fire". Lawyers for abuse victims described the schools as Dickensian-style workhouses and paupers' prisons. Fr O'Reilly said that boys were beaten for a wide range of reasons - including bedwetting - and that the punishment meted out were at times "spontaneous", "excessive" and "brutual". Such punishments or the fear of punishment kept the boys constantly on edge, Fr O'Reilly stated.

"I accept that the boys experienced enormous anxiety and fear. Certainly there was a sense in most of the institutional schools that punishment could come at any time," he said. And despite the pervasive fear, anxiety and sex abuse that was rife in the institutions at the time, boys who ran away were "dealt with severely". But I don't think that savage punishment was the norm," he told the inquiry. But he admitted that "far more corporal punishment was given out than should have been".

While he agreed there were beatings he denied there was "a culture of brutality" in the schools. However, Fr O'Reilly said that due to financial and other constraints, the institutions' goals of providing care, education and control to the children invariably amounted to simply exerting control over them. "I would accept that care and education wasn't the priority it was at a later time. The first priority was control." Fr O'Reilly also admitted that the food was both inadequate in quantity and quality even though priests and administrators at the institutions dined well.

He added that heating at the schools was also insufficient leaving the boys cold and hungry most of the time. "It was so much better for the people who lived and worked there," he said.

posted by The Knitter @ 10:49 AM   0 comments
Tuesday, May 09, 2006
Food & Clothing
Can you understand, on the basis of the evidence that you have heard in relation to how poor the clothing was, how poor the bedding was, how poor the food was as to why all the people who were supposed to be going into these places for care, going in because the family situation was so dire, the poverty was so dire, that they are now looking and wondering why with the capitation grants that were paid that the food wasn't better, that the clothing wasn't better?

A. I'm not quibbling at all with what you are saying that at times clothes were very poor, or that towels or that sheets were in poor condition, I accept that and I can understand why people are saying that. A lot of it probably does come back, I believe a lot of it comes back to finance. I know that we have handed over whatever we have by way of documentation in that regard to some experts for the Commission and that they are doing, presumably, a report on that.

Q. Given that Ferryhouse had its own farm, and we have heard mention of pigs being raised, we have heard mention of potatoes, we have heard people talk about going out to other farms to do work over the summer and that sort of thing, is there any explanation as to why,
one, the quantity of the food was so poor and secondly the quality was so poor?

I wouldn't make much of the fact that we had a farm. Insofar as I don't think that -- I would say the records show there is few enough religious Congregations over the years who have made any profit out of farming, any significant profit. But nevertheless it was viewed at the time as a source of produce for the school and, obviously, to some degree it did produce some. I absolutely accept that at times it was not enough. I absolutely accept that children
were hungry, that children were cold. I absolutely accept all of those things.

From The Commission Transcripts into the Rosminians
posted by The Knitter @ 11:24 PM   0 comments
Brutal Institutions
The Provincial of the Rosminian Congregation in Ireland has told the Child Abuse Commission that the disciplinary regimes at St Joseph's Industrial School in Ferryhouse, Co Tipperary and St Patrick's Industrial School in Upton, Co Cork were wholly inadequate. Fr Joseph O'Reilly told the public hearing in Dublin into the two schools that the regimes were also fundamentally flawed and at times brutal.

Fr O'Reilly said that corporal punishment was at times excessive, but he said it was also excessive elsewhere. He agreed that there was a considerable amount of corporal punishment in both institutions. However, while prefects appeared to deliver it spontaneously at any time, he said some others in the wider school community also delivered a 'slap or clatter' regularly.

Fr O'Reilly said that the fact that 17 boys received 20 blows each on one day in 1954 at St Joseph's was grossly excessive. He also described as regrettable the fact that boys were punished for bed-wetting. Fr O'Reilly also acknowledged that there was a considerable quantity of sexual abuse at both institutions.

He acknowledged that no complaint was made to gardaĆ­ until 1995. And he accepted that no attempt was made to understand the impact of such abuse on the boys. But he said he did not accept that the response of the Rosminians was about covering up.
posted by The Knitter @ 5:06 AM   0 comments
About Me

Name: The Knitter
Home: Ireland
About Me: The Ryan Report I hold fast to the view that there must be no more deals, secret or otherwise done between Religious orders and the Government of Ireland without indepth consultation with people who were abused while in the care of religious orders or the state.
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